City Solicitor Kathleen Degnan told the Ordinance & Rules Committee that councilors could make informal requests for documents and not be charged for them.

PITTSFIELD, Mass. — A City Council subcommittee looked dimly on a proposal to alter its public input procedures from a city resident who has twice been chastised for being out of order at city meetings in recent months.

The petition, put forth by Pittsfield resident Craig Gaetani, seeks to amend these strictures to permit members of the council to engage in direct questioning by a member of the public at its open microphone and allow them additional time for this purpose.

"When a speaker goes over their three minutes allotted time, any councilor who wants to hear more from the citizen speaker can request additional time to allow the speaker to continue," wrote Gaetani, who was not present at Monday's Ordinance & Rules Committee meeting, in his petition. "When all the councilors are through asking information of the citizen speaker, then they can announce that the speaker's time is up. This is a very democratic way to ensure that decisions are made by the council and not just the Council President."

"It's not a debating society," stated Councilor Jonathan Lothrop. "I don't believe that this petition is in proper and good order, for the health of the body, or for this community."

"I wholeheartedly agree,” said Council President Melissa Mazzeo, pointing out that the council's procedures are in keeping with Massachusetts General Laws governing public bodies.

The councilors voted unanimously against the petition, which was put forth by Gaetani on Nov. 5.

"We could be here all night," Councilor Kevin Morandi said of the structure proposed in the petition. "These meetings run long enough as it is."

The committee also voted to table a petition from Councilor Barry Clairmont seeking to make record requests free of charge for city councilors.

The at-large councilor said he put forth the petition following a request of records pertaining to the city's lease of space at 100 North St., for which he was charged $63.95 for 63 pages of emails pertaining to the rental move, much of which consisted of forwards and email headers.

"In my own three years as councilor, I've never been charged,” Clairmont told the committee. "I believe because this request went through the mayor's office, that there was a decision made that I was going to be charged for this."

Clairmont noted that according to the state's handbook on records, public record keepers are "encouraged" to waive fees, but are not obligated to.

"When other public officials have road blocks put in front of them in order to get records, to make sure things are working the way that they're supposed to be working, that's bad government," said Clairmont, who said he believed neither city councilors nor School Committee members should be charged fees associated with such requests.

According to City Solicitor Kathleen Degnan, fees for such information requests are required only if the party requesting formally acknowledges it as a "public records request," whereas more informal requests that do not use this wording can be provided free of such costs.

"Municipal officials do not have to make public records requests. They can simply come ask the custodian of those records, and they will get them," Degnan told the committee.

"Once you say those three words, 'public records request,' the public records law applies," said Degnan. "If you don't say it, it doesn't."

"I'm finding it a little hard to wrap my head around the fact that we can just walk in an office and say 'I'd just like to have these minutes, or this information,' and not utter those words," said Mazzeo, suggesting the committee table the petition until it had more time to research legalities surrounding the issue.

"I've never heard of any department that waives charges [for an official records request]," said Degnan, saying she believed such action would be illegal. Informal requests, the solicitor said, need not be subjected to such charges.

"All of this could have been avoided by simply asking [for the documents]," Degnan told the committee.

In light of Degnan's testimony, the committee agreed to table the petition.

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